SFTF #7 The Story Of Europe


In diesem Podcast diskutieren vier herausragende Persönlichkeiten aus verschiedenen Startup-Ökosystemen in Europa über die "Story of Europe". Die Teilnehmer sind:

Erdem Ovacik, Gründer und Vorstandsmitglied der Donkey Republic.

Fabian Böck, Gründer der Europe Think Factory.

Elina Årkerlind, Mitbegründerin und CEO von Nordic Node, einem Venture-Fundraising-Partner für internationales Scaling. Sie hat 15 Jahre Erfahrung in der Arbeit mit Startups und schnell wachsenden Unternehmen im Northern Tech-Ökosystem.

Sakina Turabali, Mitbegründerin und Chief Growth Officer von CodeEasy. Sie beschreibt sich selbst als Technik-Nerdin und glaubt an die Kraft von Vielfalt und Inklusion.

Die Diskussion beleuchtet verschiedene Aspekte, darunter die Unterschiede zwischen europäischen und amerikanischen Investitionskulturen, die regulatorischen Herausforderungen in Europa und die Bedeutung von Risikobereitschaft und Innovation. Es wird auch betont, wie wichtig internationale Zusammenarbeit und Diversität für das Wachstum und die Innovation in Europa sind.

Der Podcast bietet tiefe Einblicke in die Herausforderungen und Chancen, die Europa in Bezug auf Startups und Innovationen gegenüberstehen, und ist ein Muss für alle, die an der europäischen Startup-Landschaft interessiert sind.


In this podcast, four distinguished personalities from different startup ecosystems in Europe discuss the "Story of Europe". The participants are:

Erdem Ovacik, founder and executive board member of Donkey Republic.

Fabian Böck, founder of Europe Think Factory.

Elina Åkerlind, co-founder and CEO of Nordic Node, a venture fundraising partner for international scaling. She has 15 years of experience working with startups and fast-growing companies in the Northern Tech ecosystem.

Sakina Turabali, co-founder and Chief Growth Officer of CodeEasy. She describes herself as a tech nerd and believes in the power of diversity and inclusion.

The discussion sheds light on various aspects, including the differences between European and American investment cultures, the regulatory challenges in Europe, and the importance of risk-taking and innovation. The significance of international collaboration and diversity for growth and innovation in Europe is also emphasized.

The podcast offers deep insights into the challenges and opportunities facing Europe in terms of startups and innovations and is a must-listen for anyone interested in the European startup landscape.


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Guten Morgen.

Es geht weiter auf der Bühne 1 mit Story of Europe.

Please give a warm applause for these four lovely people from four different startup ecosystems here on stage.

Erdem Ovecik.

Fabian Böck.

Elina Årkerlind.

And Sakina Turabali.

They will discuss the story of Europe and share their overall vision for a better together here in Europe.

Fabian Böck is the founder of Europe Think Factory.

Erdem Ovecik is the founder and executive board member from Danke Republic.

Elina Åkerlind is the co-founder and CEO of Nordic Node, a venture fundraising partner for international scaling.

She has worked with startups and fast-growing companies within the Northern Tech ecosystem for the past 15 years.

And last but not least, Sakina Turabali, she is the co-founder and chief growth officer from CodeEasy.

Sakina describes herself as a tech nerd.

She believes in the power of diversity and inclusion and driving innovation and growth.

But besides that, she's always open for insightful talk about coffee and pottery making.

So, please enjoy this inspirational panel about international collaboration.

Thank you, Linda.

Thanks for the intro.

The story of Europe is such a big topic, even if you can narrow it down to the collaboration for innovation technology and startups.

So I think it's a good idea to slice something as big as a story for Europe or of Europe down into stories and what's represented best than stories by people.

And we have great people here.

Yeah, thanks again for being here, every one of you.

And I'd like to start maybe with a question regarding like the unfurtered view of this.

And because we tend to be like intellectualized things and I, from my experience in interviewing people, I know that the best answers always like come from questions regarding what you feel about something.

And I want to start with a question like that with Alina.

And what do you, what's your gut feeling or what do you feel when you think about collaboration for innovation technology and startups in Europe?

I think that we are collaborating a lot more now and then we're on a good trend.

But there's still, there's a lot of things to do and that we could collaborate more of.

But I would say like if you compare pre-pandemic with post-pandemic, because during the pandemic we discovered Zoom and we're still using it.

So the idea of international collaboration has grown so much stronger since then.

And even though we've been seeing a trend with like international, international different incubators, accelerators popping up, but now really the past years we see that, hey, it's easy to move and it's easy to go away and you can have remote teams.

So I think that startups themselves are understanding that they can move and they can have teams everywhere.

And then the ecosystem collaboration comes with that.

So that sounds rather optimistic.

What do you think about that or feel about that, Adam?


Yeah, I think that Europe has sort of gained, I'm following some of the people maybe that's also my interest, that Europe has gained this adjective, the continent that regulates and attracts certain people and startups that are also doing things differently compared to I guess US and China.

And yeah, I see that also both as a strength and something to be seen well instead of negatively, because I think it bears a lot of fruit as well.

And in terms of talent, I think we have a lot of fantastic talent and we see that there's some brain drain, of course, still going to Northern Europe, but also coming back to Europe.

And so we have, I think, a lot of potential and we still like, I think, capital to boost.

There was a new AI regulation that's, I think, sort of drafted yesterday, EU level AI regulation.

And that comes to mind also when I think about Europe and innovation.

Like we are actually doing, trying to do some things as the first mover.

And it's a question mark if it's the right approach, but I think we can make it into a right approach.

Yeah, and Sakina, please.

Yeah, sure.

I think that international collaboration enables diverse teams.

I think, I feel that the contradictory wisdom of great minds do not think alike is good for the companies, because there is different perspective, unique perspectives to really work on disruptive ideas today.

So I think it's growing very rapidly and quickly with different perspectives and like unique, diverse teams.

So three, I'd say, rather optimistic views on collaboration across Europe.

I have mixed feelings actually, because I see so much potential there, like laying around like for 10, 15 years now.

And we always ask the same questions and get the same answers and everybody's excited.

But in the end, what's the real outcome, right?

So I think, Lena, it's interesting that you say it picked up after pandemic.

I think that's somewhat true.

But in the end, so where are the concrete projects?

And I want to, yeah, maybe.

And also, I think we need to define Europe.

Europe is 49 countries.

EU is 27 countries.

And then as part of the Northern Europe, when I think of Europe, I must say that I don't include all of Europe in that.

So also the state of Europe is a super divided, there's many Europe's or European mindsets within Europe.

So of course, I in that sense, I would say, I see, we've seen a trend that is positive, but including 49 countries in Europe, then we have a super long way to go.

I mean, I had a discussion with a Transylvanian investor a couple of weeks back.

And I was like, Transylvania, is that, I mean, it didn't even was in my imagination that hey, wait, Romania has a VCU system as well, of course, because it's not in my, even though they are in EU, I mean, it's not in my understanding of being a part of Europe.

So I think that that is a long way to go to contradict that.

But the story of Europe is still not even only 49 different stories.

It's even more within them as well.

So having these international accelerator programs, for instance, that is one way of actually building bridges and connections.

And yeah, Adam, please.

Yeah, I want to say two things, actually.

One is, I work with bike sharing.

So Tanki is also doing spot and float here.

But it was totally surprising to me how little harmonization there is still in Europe.

Harmonization is a word I heard a lot in EU level, and I didn't really understand what it meant.

But what it means is the bike lights that use in Germany, you cannot use them in Holland.

And the bike lights there doesn't work in Denmark.

Like they each have their own national legislation.

And you'd be surprised how much lobbying there is just even for the bike lights.

So the industry is putting pressure on the national government and they legislate that the minimum elimination should be this and it should not be blinking in one country and there should be blinking in the other country.

So I think Europe really has a lot to do still in just saying we are one.

And in that sense, I hope EU gets more stronger leadership.

And many people say the national governments of Germany, France, they want to put like a facilitator figure in ahead of EU rather than a strong leader.

And I think we're lacking that to make it really work with harmonization.

The second part is about international talent.

So I'm born and grew up in Turkey, lived a bit in the US and then 15 years in Denmark.

And I'm one of the few non-Danish founders in Denmark.

And I think it's quite in contrast with the US.

They have 50% of top 100 entrepreneurs in the US by I don't know whatever mark, but I read it that they are either themselves or first generation immigrants.

And that's very much in contrast with what I've seen in at least Denmark.

I think the positive signs are happening in Estonia, for example, maybe Berlin is attracting also more international figures, but at least in some of Europe that's also not so happening.

So I can imagine this is a quite painful experience that you had with the lighting variations across all those different countries.

Sakina, what's something that you've experienced, you also set up operations in different countries.

What's something that you've experienced that is painful and how did you overcome it?

Yeah, many things.

But I think culture differences is a major thing.

And of course, communication barriers like language.

I mean, for example, in back in my other company, Skycraft that I built, I mean, we know that Finnish was a big market to target, but I mean, we are not Finnish speaking, it's quite hard to really get through those challenges.

So obviously, as a startup, you need to focus on English speaking countries, even though at that point, Finnish was a really great market to enter, but we can't do that.

One, we don't have the money.

Two, we don't have the talent.

And three, we don't have the competencies really.

So I think there was a major communication barriers.

And of course, it's harder, like I said in the beginning, that we are different, we need to understand their way of doing things, the culture, and kind of adapt it to their needs to kind of make this a smooth process in business.

Elina, so you connect capital and companies.

And when it comes to culture, what is your experience?

How do you serve that best?

Yeah, yes, there are cultural differences.

I think it's so interesting to see that you, because that has also been an epiphany in one sense, because I've always seen myself as, you know, an open minded person that looks into see other cultures and stuff, but then you start to realize like cultural differences in how you run companies and how you invest and also cut that into legislation and understanding.

But I think one of the main issues that we do when we help, we work mainly out of the Nordics, so help Nordic companies and to match with European VC or like American VCs, like the cultural differences is there, not only in agreement wise, but also how you make business.

Just coming from a Swede to a Dane, like going to Denmark is like, what are they doing?

There are a lot of them in there and we need to understand like, but on the other hand, there are also a lot of similarities.

So if we, when we talk to Chinese investor, that's a cultural difference.

That is, you know, that is over the board.

And then when you talk to American investor, that is also because they have a whole different, you know this better than I do, they have a whole different legislation and deal package that comes with their investment.

So you have to understand like, why, what is it, what do I want as a person and how I as a person or as a team, as the company's soul, what is the company's valuations or values?

And like having a multi international team will help with that, have a diverse team will help with that.

But you have to acknowledge it, definitely, even in investments to understand that I've seen some clashes.

When you get an investment on board just to have money in the bank and then you have someone sitting in the board with this big agreements telling you what to do and not to do and that didn't work out.

And Adam, how did you deal with that, setting up operations, different countries?

Well in terms of this investment culture, I want to say maybe a couple of things.

When we were looking for funding for the bike sharing, my experience was that the Danish and Northern European investors, we have four VCs in the company.

They are, and then I spoke with a bunch of American VCs.

American VCs were go big or go home.

So they want to park not only 5 million, I don't know, A level, Series A, but they would want to do 10, 15 and then want to see that you have a super aggressive plan.

And if you didn't dominate whatever markets you promised to dominate within two, three years then they'd rather pull the plug.

And with the Danish and Nordic investors we have, they are, let's just make sure that we're not burning everything so quickly.

But they are in for the longer haul, so if you don't deliver all the promises then they still have some money more to put in.

And my experience is that they are not going in for a multiplier of 100x, they are fine with a 10x.

And also it's more like this industrial background that they have.

And many of the investors themselves don't have the experience of being a founder, especially not a founder that made into a unicorn.

Now that's maybe changing, especially in Sweden.


So, yeah, but I see that a lot and see that Americans are much more aggressive, but then they come in with a larger agreement and then they pull the plug.

But on the other hand, then that is also reflected in valuations, how much money you can raise, and if you have that sort of product that can actually work there and work in an American market then I really think you should go for it.

But if you have like a green tech company with seven years of research left, then that is a really shitty investor for you.

I also want to say a lot of times founders take a lot of pride, my valuation is this, it's fantastic, but actually it's really hard to live up to that.

And now with the downturn we see that, that actually, oh shit, now as a founder you might actually walk out with nothing.

Because there's also these things called liquidation preferences, a term I didn't understand, but basically an investor having a liquidation preference will get the money that they put in out as a loan first with some interest, and then whatever is left you will get out as a shareholder, as a founder.

And if you're too focused on the valuation and I'll be the most dominant one, actually you're risking as a founder that you might be screwed and go home without anything.

Yeah, I think it's kind of changing now, right?

Now people are having sustainable models.

At the end of the day what I believe is, what's your revenue?

That's the simple question.

How much money do you bring into the company, right?

Of course you have a great product, you have these trendy things, AI, machine learning, whatever, but can you sell that, right?

So at the end of the day I think the question for VCs, or investors in general, is what is your money?

How much does your customers pay?

Coming back to the story of Europe, because I think this is a very talking point of Europe.

Because that is a common ground, especially for Northern Europe.

We are a bit more cautious, but then a bit more long run.

And I would say that is something that we see all over now being appreciated from American investors coming here, saying that, I've had several conversations with them, like, you're building companies legs up.

So you don't start in the vision, and you actually start to build sustainability from within, and that has been very appreciated, but on the other hand, as you see now, it's an economic downturn, then maybe you didn't have that high in valuation, and you don't have that drop.

So it's a bit more lean back.

And there's the hype cycle, so you will go through that, basically, even if the main market doesn't do it, in your specific market you will have this hype cycle.

But I still think that Europe is too conservative in not trying to avoid wasting money, but if you look at the longer term trends, it pays off to waste some money and to promote investing heavily into upcoming technologies.

And I wish that we changed our tax legislation and not be so dependent and forgiving to the corporate money and corporate culture.

And that, I feel, is Europe is trying to, you know, or listening too much, the heads of states to the car industry, to whatever chemical industry, it's very much the industrial companies still sort of running.

They get most of the R&D money from EU budgets, for example, not the AI technologies, not the crypto technologies, but the industrial technologies.

That is being regulated.

That is the problem, I think.

I agree with you.

It's like understanding where the innovation power that Europe as a region is lagging behind internationally.

The US, they are super aggressive and, you know, it's going on.

China and Asia are technologically, they are super advanced if you compare to us.

We are like the old region that's falling behind.

And a lot of the issues have to do with that, that Europe as a EU does not take risk.

They try to mitigate risk.

And it's all about mitigating risk.

If you don't take any risk, you're not going to get any reward.

And I think that is an issue coming with new technologies as new technologies has been grown so fast.

And what does EU do?

They do not make a new green deal as the US.

They put on this like AI ban regulation, crypto regulations.

They put on, they try to force down innovation instead of enhancing it.

And that I think will be a crucial point issue.

I agree.

I agree.


I think let's just take Silicon Valley, for example.

Comparatively, they enable a risk taking culture, a risk taking in the sense like, okay, either you grow fast or you fail fast.

And it's okay.

You can learn from your mistakes.

And they still give a chance to invest in the disruptive ideas, right?

So they take that risk.

I think Europe doesn't allow that.

And also, I have, I mean, we have a major lack of capital in the country as well.

So I think that could be a disadvantage.

I mean, there are lots of great investment out there in Silicon Valley.

But in Europe, not quite much.

It's growing, but it's so hard.

I have been raising money for two companies and I can tell you it's disastrous.

And now in this economic period, I've been raising money for almost one year.

I mean, it takes forever.

So that's the problem.

So maybe this discussion here is super, super cool.

I don't want to interrupt it, actually.

But that's the beauty of this topic.

It moderates basically itself.

So that's super cool.

And it also shows the problem of all it, I think, because we have those brilliant people that exchange those ideas and what we see here.

And I don't get why don't we like further ahead?

Why don't we get it on the street, let's say, the power that we have?

So maybe that's something to discuss for you as well.

But I want to maybe add two more things from this, what you just said.

First is, so America as a reference.

So why aren't we able to implement what we think is cool there?

We don't have to implement everything.

Some things we don't like, but many things we like.

So why aren't we able to implement that here?

And as a second part, maybe what is it that we have here?

What is only like you also said it, it's an old continent.

That's like the reason why we're lagging behind and stuff like that.

But what is it that makes us special?

What can we leverage here that nobody else has?

Maybe like for the first discussion.

So linking what you just said to what you guys said.

God damn, why is the word guys?

I don't know what else to say.

So I think what's special, so a bit of a nuance or maybe a disagreement to what you said.

I think the regulatory aspect of Europe is special and I think it's great.

I think we should just be a lot better in facilitating smart regulation.

And I think it can be a winning thing for Europe.

And what we need to learn and do much better is changing the mindset that the tax regulations, the capital gains regulations around that is basically chasing founders and companies away from Europe.

And that I think needs to be changed.

And also the money that flows from both EU level R&D budgets but also local budgets.

Put more money like the Green Deal in the US to flow to the startups and accept that it will be sort of high risk money that you might lose some of it.

But create areas where we create a lot of liquidity for startups to have that financial power.

So don't need to I think get rid of the regulations, have the regulations but on top of that put a lot of money into it and the tax incentives for people to experience capital gains.

I agree.

I think that regulatory aspects are necessary to build a sustainable use of it.

Because you can't just run away, invent something and then run with it.

Because then you're going to have like a pee in the pants situation.

It's going to be really nice and cozy now but it's going to be super cold later on.

So I really think that you have to have but it has to come in a way that doesn't I think we need to have like a approach.

You have to be opportunistic and cautious but not oppressive.

Because a lot of regulations that are coming up is like oh this feels scary.

So I think but I think generally that EU is the solution or the sort of like pan-European collaboration is the solution.

Because a harmonization in general is needed.

I don't agree with you.

There's a shitload of money in Europe.

It's a lot a lot of capital.

The EU funding system is absolute unique and we could we should use that a lot more than it's being done.

But then you have to understand how it's done.

It's a bureaucratic system and a lot of the money are old money.

It's industrial money and they have their money in they buy companies.

They have it in the stock market.

They have it like a private banking system that sort of fill it for you.

They don't do any active investments or haven't done.

We see that changing like family offices are like they have a generation shift and their grandchild takes over and is like hey we want to start investing in sustainable solutions for instance.

But I think the money has not been risk taking.

That is the difference.

But there's a lot of money and there's a lot of capital.

But I really think that we have to understand where and also meet in the other way around.

Maybe European startups.

We aren't American startups.

We might not be able to just be funded by venture capital that gives handouts 100 checks and thinks that two are going to succeed.

Maybe we need to have startups that are one in eight need to succeed because that's how the money can respond to it.

Because EU grants is great but it's public tax money.

You shouldn't spend it like you can't spend it like a spray paint.

You have to be cautious because that's state it's taxes.

It's our taxes that we're funding it with.

So maybe we need to build companies more sustainable and in another way to address that money.

So it's a lot more about risk mitigation and understanding the company built.

I think that could be the European way.

The European way is that we build companies from legs up and find revenue models, find sustainable business models and find sustainable investors that are there by your side even when the shit hits the fan, they're still going to stand by you and help you take the next step because they believe in you.

Because we have a mutual respect for each other.

And I firmly believe that that could be the European way.

No, it won't create as much, you know, cool unicorn pop stars.

But on the other hand, we can build an army that way.

And I think that the plethora could be in the long run could be a better way of doing it.

Wow, that felt like a Go Europe talk.


No, I think like just from my experience, mostly raising money, we have got the term too early.

I just feel like maybe there's a lot of monies in there that needs to be created.

Like there's no awareness of where can we find that money.

So because if we go to VCs, we are too early, right?

If we go to angels, it's a bad economic situation.

I need to put the money on my existing portfolio.

So the question is, where is the money really?

So again, I don't know if I really agree with you in that case.

But of course, we have different perspectives and I really want to respect that, of course.

They don't want to take the risk.

That is the money.

The money is there, but they don't want to take the risk.

One other positive thing for Europe, I think, is these small markets we have and the diversity we have pushes the companies early on to adopt to different markets and understandings.

That often is a disadvantage because you don't have a big market to grow very quickly.

But if you did manage in these different markets, and I think a bunch of Estonian companies are successful because of that, they had this tiny market and then they had to figure out very quickly how to cater for different needs.

And then they could become more global faster.

And I think American companies struggle to get out of the US.

What do you guys think about that?

I totally agree with you.

And also, that is again how you can solve Europe, is understanding, seeing the different markets as testbeds.

So it's very easy to get international because you can just go across, one hour drive that way and one hour drive that way will be in different countries.

So it's very easy to try out different markets in a very early stage.

So I totally agree with that.

The Baltics is a great example.

They have been really successful in becoming international from start, I think, and global from start.

Yes, I agree as well.

So talking about very, let's say, big and abstract things, what makes us special here in Europe, but I think we also have to look closer at things that touch us personally.

And I want to know maybe from your experience as founders or in the venture capital space, what's something maybe that you've experienced when you've been collaborating internationally or European-wide that's like was touching you personally or what was a great experience from human to human, maybe starting with you, Eksta Kina.

Sorry, if I get that right, can you just repeat that question again?

What is something that touched you maybe personally when you were collaborating on international level, maybe setting up an operation in a different country?

Great question.

I think you want to take this first.

Well, I can say like I started, I founded my first company in 2007 and I was the one that we were raising capital for in 2009.

And back then we started actually a subsidiary in Sri Lanka.

So that was outside of Europe.

And then we started hiring developers from Ukraine and from Poland.

So but it was never the funny thing was, it was never in our imagination that we could start selling internationally or like finding talent or talent was that we saw that, okay, we need developers because no one knew how to program for iOS at the time.

So like everyone was learning simultaneously.

So we were like finding understanding, we needed product development, but we never understood that capital could be international.

We never understood that sales could be international.

So we had like a super hyper local focus on one thing and then super international in one way.

So I think that that is always take that with me now when I meet Nordic founders today, that were, you know, developers are everywhere.

You could you have that international mindset, but you also have the global from the sales perspective, you try to look at it in that way.

I think that founders today, compared to 15 years ago, when I started working with startups, I would say are much more global mindset is from the beginning now, you have that and also the teams are more diverse, you have a much more I'm based in Gothenburg in West of Sweden.

So we have big universities there with a lot of expats.

So we see a lot of diverse teams, more diverse teams now and that and people they are like born global and whole another way of seeing a big transgression there and I tend to see it in more different regions, not only at home.

Two things come to my mind.

One is we have a lot of thanks to Erasmus and a lot of Europeans have moved around in the continent.

And when we try to grow donkey in other countries, what I found very interesting is how many, I don't know if you call them expats, but basically people living in another culture than their home country and they tend to be were very easy to collaborate with.

And I think Europe has a lot of those people and that's basically open to being multicultural, understanding different ways of doing things and we have great potential of that.

Whether it was in Spain or Germany, we always kind of found people who were open and much easier to communicate with.

And the second one is that I think the vibe in the US at least is you need to avoid the regulators or we deal with micro-mobility so the cities, the American companies were like they are to be managed, they are to be handled.

Whereas I went to a lot of conferences where the cities and the public authorities are present and the feeling is that we can talk together and actually the public procurement budgets are very much larger than at least the US.

China is maybe a different story.

But I think in Europe they can listen, we can talk together and we can actually influence and I hope in the future do it much smarter so that start-ups can receive some of that welfare money to actually grow business models that are delivering welfare.

And I think we can have more effective conversations in Europe about how to make better use of public funding.

The intention is there.

Yeah, coming back.

But I think that in Europe you have different start-up tech hubs located.

Berlin, Paris, Stockholm, Amsterdam for example.

So it's easy to kind of share that knowledge, the experiences throughout and kind of learn from each other.

I think that really helps us to strengthen our ecosystem in Europe.

I don't really know, Silicon Valley is one hub, a small hub, right?

And then everything happens there.

So it's very, I think it doesn't have this diverse knowledge sharing environment and ecosystem that we have today in Europe.

So I think like he said, it's openness and willing to help each other really to grow each other's businesses.

But I think, I just want to add on to that.

I think that is one of the, I do, I travel quite a bit between the different ecosystems or hubs in Northern Europe, especially in the Nordics.

The best ecosystem builders is an expat.

There are some coming from the outside and coming in and say, hey, we need to build bridges.

So like all my best friends in every city in the Nordics is someone that wasn't born there.

Because they are the ones that are opening up and really trying to connect.

And I think they are the best bridge builders.

So I think that's a clever move for you to find them as well.

And yeah, that's reflects very well my experiences as well.

I think when I started like branching out of Germany, what I felt pretty, pretty fast is that you meet people that you can connect very, very easily.

And it almost feels like family and friends.

So this is something that I experienced, like whether it's in Iceland, where we met first, or in Barcelona, or even with people from Krakow and there were also, where also been in Poland.

You have people that you can connect very, very easily, very fast.

And it almost feels like family.

And I think that's something to build on.

I don't know how to make sense of that more.

But I think that's something we have here.

And you say that's a foundation to really collaborate together.

I want to open up the last round of questions and ask you just for simple, simple thing.

What's your wish for the next 10 years to come?

How should we collaborate better in Europe?

Starting with you, Adam.

Yeah, you probably know what I'm gonna say.

But I really wish we have much.

I think our decision making system legislation wise is struggling, not just in Europe.

Any democratic world is struggling with this 200 year old representative decision making system and it's not delivering.

And then there are people debating whether the Chinese model is better.

What are we gonna give up for becoming stronger in terms of GDP or military?

I think we have to figure out a better democracy.

And that is going all the way to can we deliver better decision making for us where there's lower cost of getting involved for the citizens and also smarter, better decisions at the end of the process.

I think we are kind of kidding ourselves if we think that the current representative democracy is delivering proactive decision making.

I think the whole not being able to tax CO2, although we're having this debate for the last 10 years at least, is in contrast for me for how we handled tobacco back in time or the oil crisis further back.

I think we need more innovation at the core of it, how to make better public decisions.

That's what I hope for the next 10 years.

I think coming from an ecosystem perspective, I would say, so for me I really think I want to see more bridges between different ecosystems or like city to city and see how we can build those bridges better.

So my dream is to have like, you know, you can have clusters where you can ship startups wherever they suit best to grow, to first grow, and then there could be a scaling up path, not only for starting up startups, but actually for more mature scaling up companies to build that ecosystem better all over Europe, you know, so you can use to make a Raspus program for scale ups would be a dream, actually.

That would be nice.

Yeah, same as Alina said, I think I'm coming from a startup mindset, so I mean I think just looking at Stockholm in general, I think we are great at building disruptive companies, but to scale I think we don't have so much of help there.

I think we need in terms of mentors.

I think in US it's Silicon Valley, it's really great if you get through the idea stage, scaling comes very quickly, but I think there is something lacking in Europe.

Like, we can come up with great ideas, but how do we scale?

We need, I think, more help with that in terms of government intervention or, I don't know, private mentors, more network, and yeah, more help in that area at least.

Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I hear many times, better decision making, better connection, and also better help for scaling.

I think that's really something that we need to do better here in Europe.

I'd say that was a great conversation.

Thank you very much, Sakina, Adam, and Alina, and I hope they enjoyed it as well.

Linda, thank you very much.

Thank you for giving us the stage.

Thank you so much.

Adam Ovejcic, Fabian Böck, Alina Ockerlind, and Sakina Torabali, please give a warm applause again for these four lovely people on this stage.

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